The Faith Conundrum
Ask any Christian why they believe and you'll get a reason. Ask any Christian why they originally believed, and you'll often get a different answer. This is key to Christianities survival, it's hard to hit a moving target.
Salvation, aka rebirth, is a gift from God. On the one hand, salvation is an unearned gift (i.e. "not of works") "lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8. But, on the other hand, one must "work out [their] own salvation with fear and trembling." Phillipians 2:12. In Ephesians God delivers his 'gift' (i.e., the one you work out with "fear and trembling") using the vehicle of faith. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1. So faith is apparently some sort of 'substance' that God employs so people can believe in him. Additionally, it's "impossible to please God without faith." The person who "comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (whew, sounds like work). Hebrews 11:6. "Rewards" that one diligently works to get from God, however, are evidence that God is, thus giving one reason to believe. Reason supplants faith thereby making it impossible to please God.
Ask any Christian why they believe and you'll get a reason. Ask any Christian why they originally believed, and you'll often get a different answer. This is key to Christianities survival, it's hard to hit a moving target.
Salvation, aka rebirth, is a gift from God. On the one hand, salvation is an unearned gift (i.e. "not of works") "lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8. But, on the other hand, one must "work out [their] own salvation with fear and trembling." Phillipians 2:12. In Ephesians God delivers his 'gift' (i.e., the one you work out with "fear and trembling") using the vehicle of faith. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1. So faith is apparently some sort of 'substance' that God employs so people can believe in him. Additionally, it's "impossible to please God without faith." The person who "comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (whew, sounds like work). Hebrews 11:6. "Rewards" that one diligently works to get from God, however, are evidence that God is, thus giving one reason to believe. Reason supplants faith thereby making it impossible to please God.
posted by paul at 7:11 AM
14 Comments:
I can't quite tell from your writing -- are you a Christian, or not?
Danny,
Really? Damn. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a christian. I've never met anyone who believed in God because of faith, but faith's a necessary element for 'salvation.' It seems to me the only valid answer to "why one believes" would be "no reason in particular, just because I can." Once reason enters the picture, faith is out the window along with salvation. Or so it seems to me, maybe I'm missing something.
Welcome to the world of blogging Paul, in regards to what you claim about faith, I approach my faith as one based on reason/s. In otherwords I/you/others/perhaps everybody, might have faith in something because of our innate sense of something greater then ourselves. We also might have faith in specific things because of our experiences, observations, considerations of evidences and arguments etc...
I doubt you could tell of a faith that is not based on something, even if it is indefinable.
Still, you might find these interesting, various definitions of faith that people have expressed:
Faith in God is what we should have. It is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. By it we obtain a good testimony and live lives of godliness, purity and worth in Jesus Christ. C H Spurgeon said: Faith is the foot of the soul by which it can march along the road of the commandments. Love can make the feet move more swiftly; but faith is the foot which carries the soul. Faith is the oil enabling the wheels of holy devotion and of earnest piety to move well; and without faith the wheels are taken from the chariot, and we drag heavily. With faith I can do all things; without faith I shall neither have the inclination nor the power to do anything in the service of God. If you would find the men who serve God the best, you must look for the men of the most faith.
C S Lewis: Faith … is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
Faith is not belief. Belief is passive. Faith is active. Edith Hamilton.
Without faith, nothing is possible. With it, nothing is impossible. Mary McLeod Bethune.
Faith is taking the first step even when you don’t see the whole staircase. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Hi Josh,
Thanks for the welcome and reply.
I think we all live with faith, though that doesn't necessarily imply an innate sense of something higher. Rather, as you say, it would be a faith based on "experience, observations, considerations of evidence" (as in science), etc.
I see the Christian faith as very different because it is supposed to be a "gift from God, not of works lest anyone should boast" Eph. 2:8,9. It would seem that if I could conjure faith in God through my own effort of observation and consideration, this would be deemed as the "works" spoken of in this scripture and I could boast. "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" an apologetics work by Josh McDowell strikes me in the same way,as does any apologetics work. I see in Hebrews 11 a long list of people who are said to have had "faith", but each of these people had an experience with God, which would be evidence that God is. Faith is supposed to be the substance of belief in place of evidence ("evidence unseen").
What I hear from Christians who speak of their faith, usually comes in one of two forms: one, a "spiritual" experience/encounter with God that resulted in belief. Two, some reason like the Bible says it is so. I have yet to meet someone who has actually met God, say like Abraham, had a baby when they were passed the time in life when things like that happen...I see alot of evidence in this. Fast forward to I Corinthians 12. There are spiritual gifts "given for the common good," things like "miraculous powers, gifts of healing, prophecy." I've never seen any of these, nor met anyone that could substantiate any of these. The bible says Peter knew Jesus, saw him crucified, entombed, then raised from the dead. Not sure how much faith it would take to believe at this point. Of course none of this can be substantiated. Obviously, I could go on, and many others have much more exhaustively. I don't really see how there is faith (i.e. the type described in the bible) when one experiences God with ones senses. Sight is a sense, for instance, and the righteous aren't supposed to live by sight, yet the people of the bible believed based on such. Ongoing miracles would also strike me as sight (seeing evidence that what I've believed is real/true).
You have some interesting ideas about faith Paul, I guess a little different from mine, but let's see where we can go with this.
Firstly perhaps a few definitions of faith, from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_in_Christianity), we have the following:
The word "faith", translated from the Greek πιστις (pi´stis), primarily conveys the thought of confidence, trust, firm persuasion. Depending on the context, the Greek word may also be understood to mean "faithfulness" or "fidelity" (cf. 1 Thess 3:7; Titus 2:10).
Commenting on the function of faith in relation to the covenant of God, the writer of the letter to the Hebrews says, "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Heb 11:1 ESV). Υποστασις (hy-po´sta-sis), translated "assurance" here, commonly appears in ancient papyrus business documents, conveying the idea that a covenant is an exchange of assurances which guarantees the future transfer of possessions described in the contract. In view of this, Moulton and Milligan suggest the rendering: "Faith is the title deed of things hoped for" (Vocabulary of the Greek Testament, 1963, p. 660). The Greek word e´leg-khos, rendered "conviction" at Hebrews 11:1 (ESV), conveys the idea of bringing forth evidence that demonstrates something, particularly something contrary to what appears to be the case. Thereby this evidence makes clear what has not been discerned before and so refutes what has only appeared to be the case. This evidence for conviction is so positive or powerful that faith is said to be it. Christian faith, described in these terms, is not synonymous with credulity.
Hebrews 11:6 describes the meaning and the practical role of faith: "Without faith it is impossible to please [God], for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."
Summarizing the New Testament concept of faith, it is a reliance upon God's self-revelation, especially in the sense of confidence in the promises and fear of the threats that are written in Scripture. The writers evidently suppose that their concept of faith is rooted in the Hebrew Scriptures.
In addition, the New Testament writers conflate or equate faith in God with belief in Jesus Christ. The Gospel of John is particularly emphatic on this point, where Jesus is quoted, "The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him" (John 5:22–23). When asked "What must we do to do the works God requires?" the writer has Jesus answering, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent" (John 6:28–29).
As you have rightly pointed out, these are emic points of consideration - early Christian ideas of what faith means. You said:
I see the Christian faith as very different because it is supposed to be a "gift from God, not of works lest anyone should boast" Eph. 2:8,9. It would seem that if I could conjure faith in God through my own effort of observation and consideration, this would be deemed as the "works" spoken of in this scripture and I could boast.
The verse you are referring seems to me to be talking about the idea of grace, that is, salvation is available through an act of God, not of humans. Verse 10 goes on to say that, "We are God's work of art, created in Christ Jesus for the good works which God has already designated to make up our way of life." (New Jerusalem translation) This suggests to me, the idea that salvation is given by grace because we are the creation of God.
I'm a little unsure about your further interpretation that this verse refers also to faith as being given so that we could not boast. Be that as it may, the idea that God has placed faith within us is certianly not new, as Wikipedia points out, the Catholic Church (I am not Catholic, I am just using this as a case example) generally has the following position on faith:
Faith is a supernatural act performed by Divine grace. It is "the act of the intellect assenting to a Divine truth owing to the movement of the will, which is itself moved by the grace of God" (St. Thomas, II-II, Q. iv, a. 2). And just as the light of faith is a gift supernaturally bestowed upon the understanding, so also this Divine grace moving the will is, as its name implies, an equally supernatural and an absolutely gratuitous gift. Neither gift is due to previous study, neither of them can be acquired by human efforts, but "Ask and ye shall receive."
Still I would suggest that unless one had some background, some knowledge, some experience, or some sense of something greater, it is hard to conceive how faith could be implanted. This would imply that faith exists as a direct result of those aforementioned things, by believing and knowing them faith is then implanted.
This is all assuming, of course, that Christian views of faith are the correct ones. As your later paragraphs point out, there is some difficulty with seeing a clear-cut presentation within 1st Century Christianity however - there is tension, perhaps contradiction (that is what you seem to be suggesting?)
So, an interesting one, I would be interested in your further thoughts?
Josh,
..."you have some interesting ideas about faith..."
As 'interesting' as these ideas may be, I can't claim authorship. While I was able to see them on my own, turns out others see these things as well. As to authorship, anyones guess, I'm taking this stuff from the Bible, which is indeed 'interesting.'
When I consider the greek text, it doesn't really change from the translations I was using except for Eph. 2:8 where a literal translation is "by grace you are being saved" rather than "by grace you are saved," which is a whole different topic of discussion.
You state re Eph.2:8,9 that it "seems to me [you] to be talking about the idea of grace, that is, salvation is available through an act of God, not of humans." I agree. This verse speaks of grace, being saved, and faith. It does not read: "by grace-and that not of yourselves..." nor does it read: "by grace you are saved-and that not of yourselves..." Rather it reads "by grace you are saved through faith-and that not of yourselves." At best I think one could argue that grace, salvation and faith are all three gifts of God, but I don't think you can leave faith out, rather it seems to me to be the focus of the statement "and that not of yourselves." To me this verse says, (yes, among other things, but this is a blog about faith)that God has chosen faith as a vehicle, if you will, by which he delivers the grace of salvation. Which of course begs the question: "what is faith." I chose the Hebrews 11:1 scripture because that is the one commonly used to define faith (apparently the authors didn't have wikipedia, so this is what they came up with). Again, your breakdown of the greek doesn't really change this verse; "substance, assurance, title deed," are all fine. The point is faith is pretty important, can't "please God" without it. Which brings us back to the original point of this blog, i.e. "The Conundrum." I see two very different types of faith in the bible. One is the faith pretty much anyone can acknowledge, that being faith that has a reason that can objectively be substantiated (at least to some degree!). For example, Noah got his flood, Abraham got his baby (past the point when such things happened), the disciples got to see blind people receive their sight, dead raised,etc. The other faith is the type where Jesus said to Thomas, "blessed are those who believe having not seen." That's the only kind of faith I see today. My problem is: on what is such faith based? If someone came to me and, say, healed a person who was blind, or had a limb missing and did this act in Jesus' name (i.e. in Jesus' stead), this person would have my full attention. This isn't really an outrageous expectation. I Cor. 12 states that the church has been given gifts for "the common good," like "prophecy, miracles, healings." I have seen no evidence of such. So, why should one believe? Where is the basis of faith today for you and me?
Hmmm,
I'll have to get back to you with some thoughts on this one Paul - its becoming a more complicated topic.
Cheers,
Joshua
Nice exchange. I see now that you are not a Christian, Paul, and that you were just "playing the devil's advocate" in our post. :)
I am from Virginia as well -- near the border with KY and TN.
Welcome aboard DC!
Thanks Daniel
Hi guys. I'd like to interject my story and see what you think of it. In particular, I'd like to use CS Lewis's definition of faith:
"the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods"
I was born into a Christian family that also believed in the Book of Mormon, but did not believe many of the teachings of the Mormon church. Over the course of 20+ years I accepted through reason most of what I was taught about the inspiration of the Book of Mormon. Through careful study, however, and changing how I felt about the Book of Mormon, I've realized that it was not inspired of God.
Josh, I assume you're a Christian. Would you say that I was wrong to have lost my faith, just because I had new reason to believe something else and a change of heart? What then would you say if I told you that later I also realized that the Bible was not inspired of God (using the exact same approach as I did with the Book of Mormon)? How would that differ from the previous loss of faith, and how can I know which beliefs to continue to hold faith in "despite my changing moods"?
Before you answer, I would highly recommend watching PBS's most recent documentary on the Mormons:
http://www.pbs.org/mormons/view/
It's incredibly disturbing how tightly the Mormon Church holds its members with chains of faith and emotions. I would challenge you to take a look at your own church, if you attend one, and ask if they use any of the same tactics that the Mormons do.
Great exchange guys and very thought provoking. I do love the way Josh had to take off all of a sudden, "oops, I think I hear my mom calling." Just kiddin'!
Computerguy, you really nailed it. One of the things that sent me on my journey out of Christianity was the challenge to scrutinize the Bible in the same manner I was scrutinizing the Book of Mormon. I did and as you know, the Bible holds up no better.
Wow, paul, this is one of the briefest blogs I've ever seen - kind of like my blog in Italian! Who knew you had a blog? Who, I ask you?
The real reason Christians believe is because they don't like the alternative. To wit: If there is no god, there is no afterlife, and when you die, that's it. And life has no externally imposed meaning; you must create your own meaning.
That's just too much for most people to cope with - particularly the modern weak-minded, spoilt American. So religion continues.
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